Since I had the day off today I ended up down at FBF this afternoon (Phil, we must have just missed each other!) In addition to checking out the damage, I spent some time in the HARP hangar, shooting photos and talking to some of the volunteers (turns out I met one of them last week at FRG with the Red Arrows). They said a delivery truck hit the nose. There is a roadway not open to the public, and the nose overhangs that - you can see it in the photo below. Apparently the guy also hit some of the portable fencing that normally blocks the part of the road under the nose - I did see some mangled fence sections. Although I'm not sure, I got the impression from the guys that the truck may have backed into it.

Hi

I just joined but I am responsible for the Thread on Alpha Delta"s nose on airliners.net Civil Aviation Forum which is Focusing the Worlds attentions on the Plight of Alpha Delta.

I am also a member of the Concordesst.com forum and a member of the Brooklands Museum Concorde team looking after Concorde Delta Golf.

Mark

...considering the alleged money situation, when's that supposed to be?

[quote="Project Oxcart"]Hi
I just joined but I am responsible for the Thread on Alpha Delta"s nose on airliners.net Civil Aviation Forum which is Focusing the Worlds attentions on the Plight of Alpha Delta.
I am also a member of the Concordesst.com forum and a member of the Brooklands Museum Concorde team looking after Concorde Delta Golf.

AND.........?????

Hi Mark, welcome to the site! Glad to have you.

A question comes to mind what has the Intrepid said if anything about the State of Alpha Delta in her present Location/

As there appears to be a total lack of News Coverage on Alpha Delta to me looking in from the out side 3,500 Miles out side that is.

At the momment a lot of news people are getting all flusterd about the French Concorde Trial but I have seen and herd Nothing about Alpha Delta"s nose Problems.

It is almost as though AD dosent exhist at the momment.

Actually, there WILL be news coverage.

I stopped by the Concorde again today and there was a photographer that I know for a certain publication working on an article that we should see very soon.

I think we'll see some changes for the better in the near future.

Regrettable to see this aircraft deteriorating, and hope it can be restored to good order.

I imagine British Airways will want to have this airliner serving as a marketing tool, if its to be in New York, and in that case, Manhattan is perhaps preferable to JFK (where BA colors can already be seen) ..and also, it suggests there is an interest in the aircraft appearing in moderately clean or in "good condition" to the general public.

Still, its hard to entirely fault the Intrepid, if its true a truck took out the nose cone.
[meaning a rent-a-cop probably would not have prevented this incident..]

I am not sure how many museums had deeper pockets than Intrepid, (until now). They've had to (no choice here) rebuild their pier and repair Intrepid itself if it was to exist into the future. My understanding was there were no takers in New York, in the months before it was shipped off to Floyd Bennett.

(Although the Museum gets low marks in terms of the care of its display aircraft relative to the better in door museums).

I do have one heretical note to add here however. As much as I'd like to see this concorde cared for properly, from an historical perspective, Concorde as such, is well represented in the preservation sphere. Were a tsunami or hurricane blow this one into the Atlantic Ocean, there'd be about a dozen, perfectly preserved examples left. The same cannot be said of the Boeing 707. (Sure the prototype is in pristine condition under the care of the Smithsonian, but that is not representative of the standard model(s) that served and made history in their service).

IF I had my way, the National Park Service would dedicate a good portion of Floyd Bennett field to a Civil Aviation Museum with many large airliners (and of course take care of them).

Tom

I'm with NYC Addict. Floyd Bennett should be allotted space for an aviation museum. It should especially reflect LGA's and JFK's role in making NYC a major aviation influence in the world. And you do that by exhibiting airliners which made it possible. I doubt the NY/NJPA will allow any museum or interactive display at JFK. They're too paranoid and just don't care about history to allow this. I'm very surprised Mayor Bloomberg, who is a pilot and Councilman Anthony Weiner haven't tried to establish some thing like this at Floyd Bennett.

Mark (Lurch)

Welcome , In 2004 I was part of the Brooklands team who helped save G-BBDG as well and part of the forum you mentioned.

My name (with many others) is on the plaque near G-BBDG.


So the roomers about a truck hit G-BOAD where right, Moose135 thanks for looking in to this well done I really appreciate your help

What i can't understand is why wasnt any one watching the truck and telling the driver to stop if he got to close ?

Where is CCTV of this ?

Where are the security guards ?

Why didnt they stop him ?

Couldn't he have found a bit of road 100-200 ft in front of Concorde and reversed there and before he got close to Concorde ?

I'm sorry but from the photos i saw there was a lot of space next to G-BOAD, i can't understand how he failed to reverse in to there.

At airports they use trucks to ferry stuff to / from planes, during her long life in service nothing like this ever happened, but this year it did

I aint an engineer but the forces on it mach 2 must be huge and it was designed to stay in place but that truck must have slammed very hard in to it, to brake it off.

Where is the broken nose cone ?

Did any one get the truck drivers licence plate number ?

When the accident happened were the Police called ?


I agree but since the bad news i've done my bit in high lighting her case by contacting people i feel could help, but will need to think of many others to contact.

Mark (Lurch)

As hard as its to swallow you need to understand interms of priority the Concorde crash is more "news worthy" than G-BOADs nose being broken (as the crash took lives and was the first of many triggers which in the end grounded the Concorde fleet).

If crash news had been released 1-2 months earlier or after then ADs nose would have been in the news........ Today in The Sun even a cat having kittens is more "news worthy" than Concorde's nose broken
:-
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 384273.ece

doh ................


I can see their point of view as 9/11 planes took off from New York airports so security is bound to be extremely tight.


Do they know G-BOAD's been broken ?

I’m sorry I have to disagree as that’s like saying when E-Ron went bust, it wasn’t the fault of the management………. of course it was as they where in charge, the “men in power” at E-Ron paid the price and are in jail.

So it is Interpids fault as Concorde was put in their care and responsibility, they should have done what ever to make sure Concorde was safe at all times…….. but they didn’t ………


That may be the case and good on them for rebuilding the peer, but all the other Concordes (including the ones in the UK) are very very well cared for and their staff do a brilliant job.

But Intrepid failed ……… big time.



So why didn’t they ask BA for hanger space at JFK or other airports ?

Why didn’t they ask the US government for help in finding space at an Air force base ?

Why wasn't she sent to Kennedy Space Centre (which has a port and i guess could have moved G-BOAD to a safe place until Intrepid and finished rebuilding work).

America is huge and with all heavy lifting gear the US military has moving Concorde to safe place would not have been hard.

When Concorde G-BOAA was moved down the river Thames from London to Scotland she had to be taken apart and rebuilt in her new Scottish home.





When the Concorde at Brooklands had to be moved from Bristol to Weybridge (Surrey), we safely did this by road so moving G-BOAD anywhere is do-able.

Why didn’t they ask the UK for help and advise ?

Agreed in Intrepids favour G-BOAD was safely to where she is now (and they did a great job J) but as we can see later on in time that was a bad choice ……….

I don’t know what problems they had but they could have done a much much better job of keeping her in a safe place but they didn’t …….



No offense but compared to the 707 (which was every where) only 14 Concordes where ever made and flown with regular passengers.

3 where sent to North America inc Barbados and 4 where kept in the UK.

So Concorde is rare than gold dust………and each one needs a heck of a lot of TLC and respect as no other passenger plane could do what she did for 27 years…..

It's very sad to see G-BOAD, knowing that it crossed the Atlantic in 2:52:59, and to see camp counselors bouncing balls off of it after a truck took its nose off. It's beyond poor care, but complete disregard.

"Jetinder" wrote

<< I’m sorry I have to disagree as that’s like saying when E-Ron went bust, it wasn’t the fault of the management………. of course it was as they where in charge, the “men in power” at E-Ron paid the price and are in jail.>>

Hi Jetinder.

Well, with EnRon, I do remember the folks on trial claimed to not be aware of the situation, but my impression was that was a legal defense, and what was implied and most of the public believed is that there was "intent" and a scheme. I agree Intrepid is responsible for what has occurred, but I don't feel there was any intent.

"Jetinder" wrote
<<....good on them for rebuilding the peer, but all the other Concordes (including the ones in the UK) are very very well cared for and their staff do a brilliant job.
But Intrepid failed ……… big time.>>

My understanding was there were no takers in New York, in the months before it was shipped off to Floyd Bennett.

Jetinder wrote:

<<So why didn’t they ask BA for hanger space at JFK or other airports ?

Why didn’t they ask the US government for help in finding space at an Air force base ?

Why wasn't she sent to Kennedy Space Centre (which has a port and i guess could have moved G-BOAD to a safe place until Intrepid and finished rebuilding work).

America is huge and with all heavy lifting gear the US military has moving Concorde to safe place would not have been hard. >>

I agree, the tools to do the job right, exist in America, but perhaps not the will to use money to this end. I doubt Intrepid requested Kennedy Space Centre but I do like your ideas. Not to suggest BA is the culprit here, because they obviously are *not*, but I do think they were keen to have plane serve as a marketing tool in New York City and not be tucked away in a hangar.

"Jetinder" wrote:
<< When Concorde G-BOAA was moved down the river Thames from London to Scotland she had to be taken apart and rebuilt in her new Scottish home.

When the Concorde at Brooklands had to be moved from Bristol to Weybridge (Surrey), we safely did this by road so moving G-BOAD anywhere is do-able. >>

Those were impressive operations. Were these paid for by public funds or private? I am not sure anyone would help Intrepid here beyond their regular donors or beyond whatever their normal public sector funding is/was.

"Jetinder" wrote:

<<No offense but compared to the 707 (which was every where) only 14 Concordes where ever made and flown with regular passengers. >>

The fact concorde flew the affluent and celebrities on a regular basis is of marginal interest to me in terms of their preservation vis-a-vis comet or 707, but I assume you meant it was in commercial passengers service. But didn't the Soviet SST fly passengers as well?

"Jetinder" wrote: <<3 where sent to North America inc Barbados and 4 where kept in the UK.
So Concorde is rare than gold dust………and each one needs a heck of a lot of TLC and respect as no other passenger plane could do what she did for 27 years…..>>

It was rare when it was in service compared to other jetliners, but not so sure how true that is compared to preserved examples of other significant jet airliners - The only commercially successful SST, (not counting its Soviet counterpart), counts for a lot, but other considerations make 747, 727, 737, Comet, etc very important as well, and I am not sure we'll see surviving numbers preserved.

What SHOULD'VE had at LEAST one (1) example preserved would be the Pan Am Clipper SeaPlanes, don't you think?

It would be as if nearly all the German Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet Comets and Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe Swallows were preserved in greater numbers than spitfires, B-17s, etc and accorded greater importance.

Tom

Please forgive me I never meant to say nor imply in anyway that Intrepid deliberately meant to hurt G-BOAD, (some times my typing can be a bit bad and I leave out stuff).

I meant Intrepid was responsible for G-BOAD’s well fare and health.


I’m very surprised, I would have thought Concorde was prize which any one wanted to have.

It’s a pity Intrepid didn’t look outside New York.


I agree with you.

From what I heard Floyd Bennett airfield isn’t that easily accessible by the general public or tourists, so how BA would have thought G-BOAD could have been used as marketing tool from there is beyond me.

While Intrepid rebuilt the peer, BA and Intrepid should have moved G-BOAD to a safer place, In Jan 2008 I heard one of her flight deck windows got cracked, proves that airfield isn’t safe.

Looking back it would have been better to store G-BOAD in BA hanger at JFK than leave it to rot at Floyd Bennett.


Not 100% sure who paid fully for the brooklands Concorde, I think it was BA + Brooklands museum + money raised by me and many others which brought her to brooklands for full restoration.

G-BOAA (the one in Scotland) was paid for by BA + museum of Scotland, both moves where huge and in the London area I was there to witness and record it.

With G-BOAD BA should have helped out (as BA still own the plane).


That’s exactly what I meant J, with Concorde as long as you had the money BA didn’t care if you was the Queen of England or Joe Bloggs living on the dole. As long as you could pay the airfare then any one could fly on Concorde and be as fast as mach 2 fighter pilots.


They did but their version wasn’t as good as Concorde.

On paper it was a bit bigger, faster and flew a bit higher than Concorde = in theory better.

But the TU144 (Russian Concorde) had less range than Concorde this was due to its engines using after burners all the time.

Where as on Concorde she used afterburners on takeoff , then to brake the sound barrier (mach 1) as soon as she reached mach 1.7 the afterburners where turned off and the plane continued to fly to mach 2 at full power on supercriuse for 3 hrs.

Supercruise saved fuel and gave Concorde the range she needed to fly to New York or Barbados non stop from London or Paris (the same range a 747 and Airbus A380 has) but Concorde flew 2 ½ times faster than these planes……… think about it.

The TU144 never had this technology, if it had been given better engines then the TU144 would have flown to the USA, but Russians never developed it. The TU144 was just a political thing.

I think the range was Moscow to France at mach 2, the TU144 needed to fly Moscow to New York non stop (which its engines would not let it do as they drank fuel by the lorry load).

If the TU144 had been a real rival to Concorde then I bet the USA would not have scrapped their SST (as they wouldn’t have wanted the Russians having one and USA not having one).

Unlike Concorde the TU144 was a real death trap, in the 1970s it flew for 2-3 years only in the USSR (taking people or mainly first class mail across the USSR), but had a lot of fatal crashes so the soviets took it out of service and grounded it for life.


I fully agree with you, trouble is we are not “men in power” we don’t decide what stays or happens…….. If I had my way believe me Concorde would still be flying now with passengers etc all over the world, I also would have some how got the TU144 in to full service and I would have had “son of Concorde “ being developed but that’s all a dream as I ain’t a “man of power”…….. I ain’t Bill Gates = richest man in the world.

The know how to do it is there…… finding “men of power” with the will and money to make it happen is the impossible task.

On Save Concorde Group we are trying to get a Concorde back for airshows……. technically it can still be done, but we can’t make it happen as so far the “men in power” at BA and Airbus have refused at all cost to let us do it…….. so who knows…..

>Floyd Bennett should be allotted space for an aviation museum. <

That would be very cool but it wouldnt be a local issue. FB is part of the National Park Services Gateway National Recreation Area meaning you would
have to deal with Uncle Sam. Good luck on that.

> I'm very surprised Mayor Bloomberg, who is a pilot<

My guess is that he is busy with bigger issues but it is possible he has no clue like all of us did until this thread started.

>Councilman Anthony Weiner <

Forget this guy. He tried to shutdown the West 30 Street Heliport a year or so ago, tried to introduce anti-helicopter legislation for NYC and is
too busy trying to introduce a bill to get 1000 new visa slots for fashion models (I kid you not).
His last name is very appropriate.