The Phil Mocek Incident

[gonzalu]

Not sure if this has been posted. Very interesting case... comments? Watch the videos, they are very interesting indeed.

http://papersplease.org/wp/mocek/






Interview after trial.

[Zee71]

Interesting out come. Here's some additional info from the TSA website: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav..._pictures.shtm

[NIKV69]

More from the crowd that doesn't want to show ID and doesn't want to be questioned or searched. I don't think the the TSA is always the greatest but right now they need to be listened to. It's a shame that somebody's tax money will be needed to pay this idiot when he wins his civil suit.

[PhilDernerJr]

Reading the beginning of the site, I don't know where in the Constitution is says one has a right to travel.

I can't stand when people defy just for the sake of defying. He's only doing for the purpose of being an ass. If he had a school project or something, at least there would be a reason for what he's doing.

He's lucky he's in the US and the courts decided to not send him to jail. He should be grateful that he is where he is, instead of acting like he's some sort of victim.

[gonzalu]

I agree with both you Nick and Phil, but there is also a need for folks to test our laws. Giving the governemnt the freedom to do as it pleases without regard for the law is also not good. So I agree that I would not be taking pictures of TSA or checkpoints for any reason because I just don;t need to, but they also can't do a thing about if one of the citizens which has the right to, does.

Phil, that's like our problem where others don;t see the need for us to take pictures of planes just because they feel we are idiots or jerks who don;t need to. Not exactly the same but similar. Maybe he has a fetish to take pictures of government in action? Who am I to judge?

Nick, you CAN'T say what you said... YOU don;t make the rules... so if it is legal and someone wants to do it, it is as much their right as you wanting to do what you like to...

This is tough... you can feel what you want but also must defend their right to do as they please as long as it is legal... Ethics is a different story. You can argue ethics all you like but you have no right to argue that someone's rights were violated and they do not have the right to sue.

You can also say why didn;t the TSA just leave the guy alone? If he took his pictures, and presented his boarding pass and no law says he has anything else to prove, leave him the heck alone... no cops would have gotten in trouble and no TSA ruffling, and no courts time and no law suits from Joe Plumber and no one gets hurt... never have been from any pictures.

YOU KNOW the TSA guy got upset because he felt he was a cop or someone with power and was not happy that someone challenged him.

Phil, I also was very doubtful about the no ID requirement. I have first hand knowledge of NY State law on personal identification. If a Police Officer asks you for ID in NYS and you can;t produce one, you can be DETAINED (not arrested yet) until such time as your identity can be established. In the event that you cannot prove you are a legal citizen or resident, you can be arrested. I never had to test it in my previous life but and I don;t remember what could happen to you should you be unidentifiable via fingerprinting or other methods. I believe the feds get involved then.

[PhilDernerJr]

I'd like to announce that Phil Mocek has joined the site and will be taking part in the discussion. Many of us have strong feelings about this (myself included) but I want to urge everyone to follow our rules and keep the discussion friendly in all directions.

Thanks guys.

[NIKV69]

Look, we are in a world where if you don't want to be screened before you board fine. Eventually a plane will come down. Either in a populated area or not. On the other hand if you want the best shot at making sure everyone that gets on planes doesn't have a weapon it's the TSA. They are far from perfect but they are the only thing between us and terrorism.

You can slag then all you want, say you don't want to be patted down, don't want to be bombarded with radiation, say you don't want to profile etc, but at the end of the day none of you that do will want to deal with situation when people die.

You seriously want me to believe you would sacrifice people's lives for liberty? Not to get patted down? Or go through the extra screening after you decided you don't want to bring ID? Then give us this 'papers please' propaganda?


I doubt it.

I have nothing to say to Phil Mocek. To be honest I think it's pretty clear he orchestrated his encounter with the TSA and local law enforcement and much like Sen Paul are getting in the way of people trying to do an impossible job to try to keep people as safe as possible.

Is is that hard to bring ID with you? Or in Sen Paul's case get a pat down? I am sick of this wannabe libertarian garbage because I am more libertarian than anyone. I want all drugs legal, I want prostitution legal and well as polygamy too. I am not stupid enough to think we can survive without any taxes or being patted down or made to show ID at the airport. Unless someone has a better idea of screening pax without having fares go through the roof I want to hear it. Right now the TSA has done a decent job of keeping people from dying so until that time it's the law of the land.

Bring your ID and leave your attitude home. You're not the only one at the airport. I am sick of hearing the TSA sucks. They have bad apples like everyone.

As stated I have nothing to say to Mr. Mocek because he is an imposter. You want real libertarianism? Then elect Ron Paul. Have him disband the IRS, EPA, TSA and everything else he says he wants to. Then bring our whole military home. Just make sure you are all there when it all goes to hell. Which would happen in a matter of months.

Though a better way to handle it is to suck it up, leave your attitude home and bring proper ID with you. Comply with the TSA's wishes. Everyone gets on the plane and everyone arrives safely.

Just a thought.

[Gerard]

Though a better way to handle it is to suck it up, leave your attitude home and bring proper ID with you. Comply with the TSA's wishes. Everyone gets on the plane and everyone arrives safely.
Just a thought.

My thought(s) also. Good post there.

[jerslice]

I always thought we were a give me liberty or give me death type society...

Anyways personally not bringing ID does sound to be intentional baiting that goes too far(i dont see anything unreasonable about requiring ID) but I have no problem with people who question and stand up to the tsa's search and seizure powers which are to me--if you didn't already guess--ridiculously overbroad and terribly intrusive if not flat unconstitutional. (We should not have to submit to the same basic procedure as someone who is frisked under reasonable suspicion.).

Phil, though there is no explicit right to travel, I find the implication you've made alarming. If I follow that to its logical conclusion you have basically argued that the government has the right to restrict our freedom of movement or potentially bar or functionally bar entire modes of transportation from someone, despite their being a law abiding citizen on whatever basis they so choose. Then again the bill of rights says there is to be no unreasonable search and seizure but here we have to choose between government violating our privacy or our person in order to access one of the most efficient modes of transportation on the planet - so I guess it's all fair game.
Additionally, I have a mixed reaction to your comment that he should be grateful he lives in a place where he can pull **** like this and walk away. On the one hand, I agree that he should be thankful he lives in a place where he has the ability to meaningfully challenge a law and not automatically spend a decade in hard labor, I suspect he is. But on the other I strongly oppose the implication that we should just suck it up, smile, and move on instead of challenging the system when we feel a violation against our rights has been committed.

[NIKV69]

(We should not have to submit to the same basic procedure as someone who is frisked under reasonable suspicion.).

You're not. Reasonable suspicion usually means you have been pulled over for some other offense or detained for some other reason by law enforcement going about your daily life and not entering an aircraft where a hundred other people's safety comes into play.

I strongly oppose the implication that we should just suck it up, smile, and move on instead of challenging the system when we feel a violation against our rights has been committed.

So again you are for letting people die so your liberty can remain intact? Remember this whole liberty thing was drafted long before the Taliban or Al Qaida was even a thought. Sure I am a liberty guy too but to hold the constitution up is fine. You going to be the one to knock on Helen Tobin's door and tell her that her son is laying in a field in Lockerbie?

This is 2012, I think our goal should be to keep air travel as safe as possible not pander to Ron Paul and his son.

Which brings me to something I find funny.

Senator Paul was being interviewed and he went in to this tirade how the TSA is doing random checks and pat downs and how unconstitutional that is. Then in the next sentence went into how it would be better to profile people to pat down. So in essence an Arab-American can have his constitutional rights trampled but an Arian from KY should be allowed to just board?

Something is very wrong with that picture.

Again the TSA is far from perfect but at the moment it's all we got. Do what they tell you or call Greyhound.

[mirrodie]

Agree w nick and Gerard. Carry the ID and move along. Test the system on your own time. Bust balls only when provoked.

[gonzalu]

Look, we are in a world where if you don't want to be screened before you board fine. Eventually a plane will come down. Either in a populated area or not. On the other hand if you want the best shot at making sure everyone that gets on planes doesn't have a weapon it's the TSA. They are far from perfect but they are the only thing between us and terrorism.

Where did I say any of the above? Did I say that Nick? Really? Why do you want to spin this into what is not? You love to just add fuel and light it don't you? LOL Seriously man, no one is going that far. Let's get back to the subject at hand. ID and Photos... THAT'S IT!!! Where did bringing down planes come into the picture here? Where did busting balls come in to terrorism? In some states, you are not required by law to wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle. I think it is stupid and dumb, yet I can't do a damn thing about it when I see someone riding down the interstate without a helmet.

You can slag then all you want, say you don't want to be patted down, don't want to be bombarded with radiation, say you don't want to profile etc, but at the end of the day none of you that do will want to deal with situation when people die.

Again, why are you going WAY OUTSIDE the discussion envelope here? For your own gain so you have a platform to dish out your personal and political views? Your views are ok with me and I respect them, but stick to the subject and the point!
What weapon did he have? What intent? He was clear he was NOT going to prevent them from doing their job. He never said do not frisk me, pat me, radiate me, etc. Not that I heard...

You seriously want me to believe you would sacrifice people's lives for liberty? Not to get patted down? Or go through the extra screening after you decided you don't want to bring ID? Then give us this 'papers please' propaganda?

Again, where did I say this? How is this comment relevant? I don't believe anyone said anything about preventing TSA from doing their job or being processed etc. NOTHING to that effect. Show me where I or anyone did? Papers Please simply is one avenue for folks of that nature to speak out. There are other ways like standing in my way at the Subway Entrance and handing me a piece of paper... no different. Their right too... just like you have the right to let off some smoke in here... different?

I have nothing to say to Phil Mocek. To be honest I think it's pretty clear he orchestrated his encounter with the TSA and local law enforcement and much like Sen Paul are getting in the way of people trying to do an impossible job to try to keep people as safe as possible.

Again, I do NOT think this had anything to do with Security! At no point did I notice a security breach attempt, did you? If the law and the regulations say a boarding pass is an ID, so be it. Change the law then, Nick.

Is is that hard to bring ID with you? Or in Sen Paul's case get a pat down? I am sick of this wannabe libertarian garbage because I am more libertarian than anyone. I want all drugs legal, I want prostitution legal and well as polygamy too. I am not stupid enough to think we can survive without any taxes or being patted down or made to show ID at the airport. Unless someone has a better idea of screening pax without having fares go through the roof I want to hear it. Right now the TSA has done a decent job of keeping people from dying so until that time it's the law of the land.

Then get the law changed. I know photojournalists that have seen and photographed someone get shot in the head and killed. They had the opportunity to stand in front of the bullet, talk to the killer, whatever. Instead they just took pictures and did their job of recording. Morally, Ethically, Legally, whatever: Right? Wrong? Legal? Illegal? Not too easy to say ... Legally speaking, should the reporter be arrested? For what?

Bring your ID and leave your attitude home. You're not the only one at the airport. I am sick of hearing the TSA sucks. They have bad apples like everyone.

I do, he did not. Rules apparently say he does not have to. And btw, the whole thing started because of the insensitive TSA that does not want to have his pic taken and is apparently unaware of the law, rules, etc. The one person in the video that seems to be the most professional is the Police Officer!

As stated I have nothing to say to Mr. Mocek because he is an imposter. You want real libertarianism? Then elect Ron Paul. Have him disband the IRS, EPA, TSA and everything else he says he wants to. Then bring our whole military home. Just make sure you are all there when it all goes to hell. Which would happen in a matter of months.

Though a better way to handle it is to suck it up, leave your attitude home and bring proper ID with you. Comply with the TSA's wishes. Everyone gets on the plane and everyone arrives safely.

Just a thought.

Nick, you are an extremist! Don;t forget I love you... but you sometimes make mountains out of molehills, You are VERY MUCH LIKE Mr. Mocek in that you want to be heard, you want to flaunt your right to an opinion... regardless of what other's opinions might be!

[PhilDernerJr]

I always thought we were a give me liberty or give me death type society...

Anyways personally not bringing ID does sound to be intentional baiting that goes too far(i dont see anything unreasonable about requiring ID) but I have no problem with people who question and stand up to the tsa's search and seizure powers which are to me--if you didn't already guess--ridiculously overbroad and terribly intrusive if not flat unconstitutional. (We should not have to submit to the same basic procedure as someone who is frisked under reasonable suspicion.).

Phil, though there is no explicit right to travel, I find the implication you've made alarming. If I follow that to its logical conclusion you have basically argued that the government has the right to restrict our freedom of movement or potentially bar or functionally bar entire modes of transportation from someone, despite their being a law abiding citizen on whatever basis they so choose. Then again the bill of rights says there is to be no unreasonable search and seizure but here we have to choose between government violating our privacy or our person in order to access one of the most efficient modes of transportation on the planet - so I guess it's all fair game.
Additionally, I have a mixed reaction to your comment that he should be grateful he lives in a place where he can pull **** like this and walk away. On the one hand, I agree that he should be thankful he lives in a place where he has the ability to meaningfully challenge a law and not automatically spend a decade in hard labor, I suspect he is. But on the other I strongly oppose the implication that we should just suck it up, smile, and move on instead of challenging the system when we feel a violation against our rights has been committed.

Usually in the topics where I say "flying is not a right" we are discussing the way airline treat people. I say that because flying is a business. I say it's not a right because it's not in the Constitution...simple as that. If you don't want to adhere to the requirements of flying, then you have other options.

Many people shoot back at me the "those who sacrifice their liberty for safety deserve neither" quote, but I don't think it applies. I just don't think showing my ID, letting others know that I am one of the good guys, is a sacrifice of my liberty. If I don't like the process, I have a right to complain to the organization and politicians and vote and so forth. THAT is the liberty.

The fact that Mr. Mocek wasn't grabbed by his throat, hauled away and never heard from again, and instead was able to do all of this, have a trial and reach out to the masses shows just how much freedom he has in this nation, versus many other places in the world. Perhaps he should go try to change the process and policies there instead.

[megatop412]

'Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should' is what I follow, but I do think that there do need to be 'tests' of the system like this to see just how much freedom we have on paper vs. in reality.

That being said, I would ask to leave a plane if I found out someone had just boarded that was allowed onboard without having to show their ID. I would not have the same reaction if I saw a person filming the TSA staff, but the ID thing really bothers me, even if one is carrying a ticket- anybody could be carrying your ticket and claim to be you.

Mr. Mocek, if you are reading this, I am reminded of the suitcase containing the bomb that was allowed onboard Air India 182 in the 80's. Over 300 people were killed because the gate agent ignored a security policy that would have prevented the bag from being interlined from a previous flight, all because the person who checked the bag in insisted on it. Had the agent enforced the rule, which was in place for a reason, there probably would have been a different outcome. So, yes, you should be required to carry ID if you intend to board a commercial aircraft so that your identity can be confirmed and so that no luggage is allowed on board that is not connected to anyone on the plane.

[NIKV69]

Manny I wasn't talking specifically about you but how people are putting their liberty over safety which is the underlying concept about encounters like Mocek and Sen Paul. I love you too but I will love you more if you stop the triple shot expresso at Starbucks!